micawber
Full Member
40 years on the road and still in the dark.
Posts: 52
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Post by micawber on Sept 23, 2008 12:35:57 GMT -5
Hi folks! Now that the nights are drawing in, lights are becoming an issue again. I find the lights on my NTV to be pretty good. I fitted a high intensity bulb from Halfords soon after I bought it but am now wondering if it will run twin headlamps without draining the battery, either with a Streetfighter type set up or as part of a twin headlamp screen. (Some people are never satisfied.) Over the years I have found the traditional round headlamp seems to give the best beam pattern, other shapes on bikes that I have owned have been disappointing. I am willing to be proved wrong! So what I would like to know is a) whether the NTV/Revere alternator will keep the battery charged when using twin 55w headlights (with dip) and has anyone out there tried the set up, and b) if so, any recommendations as to lamps or handlebar screens with lamps? I would like to be able to use both sets of lights together. It seems to me to be such a waste when you see faired bikes with twin headlights using only one light for dip, one for main beam, and looks so unsymmetrical. If the alternator is not up to charging at low revs, eg for extended town or low speed work, I suppose it would be feasible to fit a switch to run one headlight plus pilot light at these times. I am sure that some of you will be able to throw some light on this query (pardon the pun!).
Micawber
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Post by buzzin on Sept 23, 2008 13:08:48 GMT -5
Can't help you with your real question (never seen an NTV with more then one light). I'm more then satisfied with the lightbeam on my Revere....single beam, philips blue-light vision. But I do agree on the bikes that do have two lights and only use one....seems daft to me. Honda claimed it was for legal reasons....but that doesn't make sense, as others do have them both on (e.g. suzuki v-strom) Ow well...
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micawber
Full Member
40 years on the road and still in the dark.
Posts: 52
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Post by micawber on Sept 23, 2008 14:05:35 GMT -5
Just discovered that according to the Gospel of Haynes the alternator puts out 345 Watts at 5000 rpm. That would mean that even with all lights, twin brake lights on and an indicator flashing there would still be plenty left over for extra lights. The drawback here would be that most riding is done at well under 5000 rpm so it would be useful to see a graph of the alternator output at various revs, to see how much it drops at non main road rpm. If most NTV riders are like me, and like to trundle around in the highest gear possible, for economy and to enjoy the V twin musical accompaniment, this does not help the charging rate if there is extra loading on the electrical system. Though an extra 50 watts or so compared with the standard main beam may not be too critical. The battery is quite small so could soon be depleted and leave you stranded when you want to start after a break. Oh for a kickstarter -belt and braces! So - advice please!
Micawber.
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Post by rj2para on Sept 23, 2008 14:27:57 GMT -5
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Post by everydaybiker on Sept 23, 2008 16:38:58 GMT -5
My Powerbronze fairing has the twin (round) headlight option, which I think looks nice but in reality is a bit disappointing. The lights themselves are quite shallow and in all honesty I think the standard headlight is a better performer, being of a larger diameter and as a consequence quite a bit deeper. It must give it a better beam pattern.
I had (standard) twin headlights on my previous bike (VFR) and they weren't mind-blowing either. Thankfully both bikes have twin dipped beams as well as high beams - I don't like this single dipped beam idea either!
No problem with the bike running twin headlights from a juice point of view although I don't know what wattage my twin bulbs are (were already installed when I bought the fairing secondhand).
Now to see if the system can cope with my new heated grips.........
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blitzman5
New Member
may your gardian angel fly faster than you can ride
Posts: 23
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Post by blitzman5 on Sept 23, 2008 18:02:56 GMT -5
HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE H4 100W - 90W OFROAD RALLY BULBS THY RUN THE SAME POWER AS NORMAL HERE IS Item number: 380065049255 ON EBAY MY MATE RUNS THEM ON HIS ZZR1100 THY SAY THY ARE ELEGAL FOR ROAD USE BUT THY SAY THAT ABOUT EXHAUST SYSTEMS THESE MUST BE BETTER THAN CANDLE LIGHT
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micawber
Full Member
40 years on the road and still in the dark.
Posts: 52
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Post by micawber on Sept 23, 2008 18:43:46 GMT -5
Thanks folks for your replies. I think everydaybiker's comments answer the alternator question, though the views re the minimal benefits of twin lights over the original headlamp are interesting. Perhaps better to uprate the original equipment by fitting a relay for the dip and main beam. Thanks for the link rj2para. Blitzman5, you should be aware that high power bulbs may burn out switches as the contacts are not designed to take the load. They will certainly cause the wiring to heat up. They can be fitted to cars because they already have relays for the lights so the switches only have to carry the small current needed to trigger the relays. The idea is a good one though. With a properly aligned headlight the extra light shouldn't be a problem for dazzle. I might try fitting a relay as above to get the most from the existing bulb -then it would be a small step to fit a high power bulb later to try it out. I don't know whether your mate's ZZR1100 came with relays for the lights as standard -more modern bikes than the NTV have more advanced electrics -but it's worth checking, as switchgear isn't cheap. I'm quite surprised that the twin horns on my NTV don't have a relay, but I've not heard of horn switches failing on NTVs. I've got something to think about now.
Micawber.
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Post by McF on Sept 24, 2008 1:50:45 GMT -5
Poor lighting is a topic regularly raised in the BMW club magazine, even new models suffer from dim units. I read an interesting article a while ago on an upgrade involving (I think) a High Intensity Discharge system from a car. If I can find the article, I'll post news. It cost circa £100, but the kit was sufficient to do two bikes. As Micawber says, the alternator looks to have spare capacity (don't forget the engine needs some juice too), but you need to consider the wiring and connections - don't let that lot get overloaded. A very common problem on Pan Euros (I have experienced this) is a 30A fuse/connector overheating, getting warped and then losing all electrical power
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blitzman5
New Member
may your gardian angel fly faster than you can ride
Posts: 23
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Post by blitzman5 on Sept 24, 2008 8:17:04 GMT -5
about the above bulbs the current it uses is 8.5 amps and the bulbs are uv coated so can be used inside plastic lens hope this helps
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Post by everydaybiker on Sept 24, 2008 17:36:17 GMT -5
8.5 Amps sounds like quite a lot, but I'm no electrician (far from it). Anybody know how that compares to the stock bulb, or how to work out Ampage?
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micawber
Full Member
40 years on the road and still in the dark.
Posts: 52
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Post by micawber on Sept 24, 2008 19:00:12 GMT -5
IIRC, the formula for converting eg a 60 Watt output to Amps is Watts divided by Volts = Amps, therefore 60W divided by 12V = 5W. that means that a bulb rated at 100W would give 8.3333A on a 12V system. I suppose as the power goes up on a system designed for lower outputs the resistance would increase as the system heats up, and certainly on an older bike the connectors could heat up due to corrosion over the years. Blitzman5's quote of 8.5A, I imagine quoted from the manufacturer's website, is probably spot on. But that is 50% over what the system was designed for and though could give an amazing improvement in the short term, does not promise long term reliability especially when you consider that the youngest NTV will be 11 years old by now. Hot spots could develop as in McF's example of the Pan Euro's fuse holder. Even though the electrical system is probably designed to cope with a percentage of output higher than that fitted as standard, it would be wise to consider replacing some of the wiring with heavier gauge stuff, or using relays, to be able to enjoy the benefits of high power bulbs with peace of mind. After all, most people buy NTVs because they are day in day out reliable, and want to keep them that way. I remember being blown away in 1974 by the amazing lights on a 6V MZ TS250 which I had for a while. I have had many MZs in recent years, and have been surprised how the lighting systems have deteriorated, purely through being 6V and due to corrosion of the connectors. Some owners have advocated replacing the wiring loom with heavier gauge stuff (a fairly straightforward job as the sysem is simple) which has restored the system to its former glory. 12v systems don't suffer so much from this, but it does happen. Some other formulae: Watts =Amps X Volts Volts = Amps divided by Watts
Micawber
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Post by McF on Sept 25, 2008 1:38:06 GMT -5
Well done Micawber - even I understood that (and remember I think Elektrickery = Black Magic) I'm on leave this week and enjoying some home time. The General has lots of jobs for me to do, however, I spent an hour so browsing back through my BMW journals (for the article on replacing headlights) I found several readers letters (NO, not that sort!! ;D) with references to modern BMWs breaking down. One guy recovered by the AA was told by the AA guy, he was "always getting calls to fix BMWs - must be the worst reliability of any bikes". Biker then asked - which is best bike. AA guy thought and said - "I rarely get called to Hondas". Now this might reflect other factors, eg no Honda owners take out breakdown cover (comes as standard with my Footman James Insurance). Buying a new tail light bulb (for General's car) yesterday I chatted with the shop owner who has just got back from a 3500 mile tour of Europe with 16 other bikes. Only 3 bikes broke down and they were all Beemers (he was one). I'm very happy with my old boxers (bikes not underwear!) and see the NTV as a more modern equivalent. Still no nearer the article, but I spent an enjoyable hour or so reading through some back issues last night!
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Post by ilegalalien on Sept 25, 2008 5:00:48 GMT -5
my standard 7" headlamp with a xenon 55/60w and newish battery works well, i have the Euro Revere which has 2 relays on the lighting circuit which the NTV doesn't have, i've noticed my Revere has better illumination than the NTV so i put this down to the relays, on my Bros400 i have twin 55/60 and they work great so i assume it's all down to the condition of the wiring connectors and battery, i remember reading about testing voltage at the headlamp and it can get lowered through the switches down to 9v-ish.. one good reason for using relays, on a similar note... on a old 6v scrambler i put the feed from the alternator straight into a 24v truck bulb and it was daylight, i don't recommend this
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micawber
Full Member
40 years on the road and still in the dark.
Posts: 52
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Post by micawber on Sept 25, 2008 13:01:29 GMT -5
Illegalalien, your reply confirms to me that fitting relays is probably the way to go. Where have Honda actually fitted the relays? They don't like vibration so I suppose they must be rubber mounted under the side panels somewhere. Any photos? I had thought of wrapping aftermarket relays in foam or similar and slipping them into the plastic tool holder under the right hand side panel, with enough wire so they could be slid out for any maintenance or replacement (with inline fuses of course). Unless the frame already has unused mounting points, which would be better. Why does the Euro market get a better specified Revere than us Brits? What type of twin headlamp set up is on your Bros 400? If you don't mind me asking. (Questions, so many questions.)
Micawber.
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Post by ilegalalien on Sept 25, 2008 13:34:15 GMT -5
the relays are rubber mounted under the rear cowling. right hand side, just behind the battery, they are rubber mounted on a metal bracket which is easily made and the mounting post is there on the NTV (same rubber moutings are on the fuel pump and some connector boxes), it takes the earth from the wiring loom, you can get rubber mounted relays already in the rubber, if you want i will take a look next week and let you know how many pins and what ampage they are, sorry no pics as i gotta remove my custom givi rack to get to the cowling. twin headlamp.. 8074277516 on e-bay, dominator...
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